Talk:Marvel Comics
Shuma-Gorath Does anyone know the answer to a question I have. Conan the Cimmerian is considered part of the same expanded universe as Cthulhu existed if I recall correctly, at least Robert E. Howard's Conan (and Kull). Since Shuma-Gorath is first mentioned in one of Robert E. Howard's short stories from that period (Thurian or Hyborian, don't recall) does that also make Shuma-Gorath part of the same expanded universe as Cthulhu? Esparza3368 (talk) 01:40, August 2, 2019 (UTC) :Since the name comes from an Howard story who definitely was part of the "Lovecraft ". He also mixed the Cthulhu Mythos with some of his Conan or Kull stories. So, I would put Shuma-Gorath in the Cthulhu universe, deserving of his own article on this wiki at some point. Actually, I was surprised that you put him on the "Marvel-only" section of the Marvel Comics article.RingoRoadagain (talk) 16:24, August 2, 2019 (UTC) Galleries So the galleries of Cthulhu Mythos in Marvel and Marvel-only Old Ones I have no problem with. Pretty much the same goes for Gallery of Misc Lovecraftian Entities, and Gallery of Lovecraftian-like Species. However, Gallery of Dark Gods and Demon Lords is kind of pushing it. Then there are the two that just do not belong here period: the Gallery of Misc Alien Super Beings and the Gallery of Interstellar Powers. I’m sorry, but no. Just no. You might be able to scratch out a reason why each of those images belong here, but it honestly just looks to me like an excuse to upload pictures. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really do not believe that a lot of this should be here. TheSmoog78 (talk) 09:49, August 28, 2019 (UTC) :Yes, it might be better to put a limit somewhere to avoid it becoming a gallery of the entire marvel universe? Or at least split it? :I don't know much about comics so I don't want to set an arbitrary precedent but maybe we should reconsider what is relevant to lovecraft and not just comisc entities? I hope we can discuss it further here: I'd like to here more than one opinion on the matter.RingoRoadagain (talk) 16:48, August 28, 2019 (UTC) ::Whatever you decide on is fine with me. You are the admin and part of it is regulating the wiki. All those whose pics I've loaded have been protagonists or antagonists in the various Lovecraftian-like stories in Marvel involving the Many-Angled Ones, Elder God's, or Old Ones just like TheSmoog78 has been creating pages for the human characters of the various Arkham Horror stories. As for splitting, I was going to create two pages for locations (Cancerverse and Marvel Multiverse). Was going to move a chunk to those two. In the Imprint section which I see was for Mythos-inspired ones, I can create a page for Marvel's Non-Mythos Elder Gods. I was also thinking of making pages there for Magic the Gatherings Eldrazi, Warcraft's Old Gods, Hellboys Ogdum, & Pathfinder's Qlippoth for starters. Whatever you decide.Esparza3368 (talk) 21:38, August 28, 2019 (UTC) :::My problem with these is that as it stands they are just collections of images with no connection to the text or explanation of why they belong on the wiki. There’s no mention of storylines relating to those characters, how they connect to the Mythos, etc. TheSmoog78 (talk) 21:41, August 28, 2019 (UTC) ::::Do you know how vast Marvel is and all the lore. How many characters and groups have been involved in crossover events, multi-issue story arcs, and single issue stories involving the Many-Angled Ones (aka, Old Ones & Elder Gods). Not to mention all the stories involving Lovecraftian-like beings & Cosmic Horror stories. We are talking about at least a 100 newly created pages. Not happening, I also update other wikis. I was going to move those pics around (some of them) to three or five pages I was going to create. Marvel related pages, which will lighten the load on the Marvel Comics page. Regardless, I'll accept whatever the admin decides. Whether it's letting me create those additional pages and moving some of those images to them or tells me to delete the images, it's fine. His or her opinion is the only one that really counts, not yours or mine.Esparza3368 (talk) 23:48, August 28, 2019 (UTC) ::::Although i am the current sole admin of the wiki, i'd rather want to stay true to the participative nature of a wiki and wish for a discussion to take place before implementing any new decision and putting it on the Manual of Style. This being said, here is my opinion as someone who knows little about Marvel's lore: ::::We should consider this page as relating more strictly to the publishing company and not as the narrativeformed by the amalgation of its publications. After a period of transition, plot information and galleries would be on other pages which would be linked to using the template. In case the gallery is still too large on the article page, we should use in its stead. ::::Going forward, we should consider each Marvel Comics story arc/events which are Lovecraft related (e.g. those involving Shub-Niggurath or Shuma-Gorath) as a separate entry worthy of its own page. Those story pages would have a list of characters with the relevant gallery. ::::Other pages which would be accepted would include location pages (the ones you intended to create for instance), and lists of characters (e.g. Many-Angled Ones) ::::We should not cover all Marvel publications on this wiki to avoid turning it into a copy of the Marvel comics wiki. ::::If it is necessary to make a page about Lovecraftian content but not directly related to the Cthulhu Mythos, (like a list of Dark Gods and Demon Lords i suppose) we should as a disclaimer on top of the page like we do on Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture. ::::Do not hesitate to tell me if you disagree with my proposal or believe it is unclear so that I can amend it.RingoRoadagain (talk) 17:43, August 29, 2019 (UTC) :::::This all sounds reasonable enough. In the meantime, I would suggest that if the text has at least a sentence or two relating the images to the universe with an example of how they interact with the Mythos (such as "Amongst other things, A consorted with B in a plot to..." or "X fought Y when it attempted to...), otherwise they are still irrelevant images to the casual viewer/those who are new to this universe. :::::And to address your comment Esparza, I am quite aware of the vastness of the Marvel universe, I’ve been reading the comics for 35 years. Mostly not the magic/cosmic hero ones, but that’s beside the point. Ringo specifically said that he was looking for opinions as his knowledge on the matter is limited, so to just wave it away with an “I’m not doing that, it’s too much work, you decide,” is pretty disrespectful in my opinion. TheSmoog78 (talk) 03:19, August 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::Not a problem. I was thinking of doing the following RingoRoadagain, in relation to Marvel. Let me know what you think. :::::::::1. Mythos-related (all entities, locations, & stories involving the Many-Angled Ones of Shuma-Gorath): ::::::::::Location: Cancerverse ::::::::::Entities: Slorioth (Old One), Chthon (Old One) ::::::::::Story: Thanos Imperative :::::::::2. Lovecraftian-influenced but NOT Mythos-related: ::::::::::Entities: Dormammu, the One Below All, Eternity, Chaos King, Glory, M'Gubgub, Phoenix Force, Topographical Man, Galactus (three versions), Alioth, World-Eater, & Hunger ::::::::::Factions: Elder Gods, the Horde, Celestials, the Infinites, & the Cosmic Aspects ::::::::::Locations: Zombiverse, Marvel Multiverse ::::::::::Stories: Time Runs Out, Marvel the End, Infinity Gauntlet, & Wraith War ::::::::::Races: Phalanx, Brood, Dire Wraiths, the Klyntar, & the Technarchy.Esparza3368 (talk) 04:00, August 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::Later I was thinking of doing the following for the non-Marvel Lovecraftian influence fiction. :::::::::Pathfinder: Qlippoths and Dominion of the Black :::::::::Forgotten Realms: Evil Ones and Mind Flayers :::::::::Pathfinder & Forgotten Realms: Neothelids and Aboleths :::::::::Warhammer: Chaos Gods, the Galaxy of Warhammer 40K (Cosmic horror story), and the World of Warhammer Fantasy (Cosmic horror story) :::::::::Magic the Gathering: Eldrazi :::::::::Warcraft: Old Gods and Void Lords :::::::::Hellraiser: Leviathan :::::::::Berserk: Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the Apostles :::::::::Devilman: God, Satan, and the Cosmic Horror story :::::::::Hellstar Remina: the living planet :::::::::Neon Genesis Evangelion: the Angels :::::::::Hakaijuu: the Cosmic Horror Story :::::::::Uzumaki: the Cosmic Horror storyEsparza3368 (talk) 04:00, August 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::I forgot the following non-Marvel Lovecraftian influence fiction. :::::::::DC Comics: Anti-Monitor, Trigon, King of Tears, Dark Destroyer, and the Gentry. :::::::::Gunbuster: Space Monsters.Esparza3368 (talk) 05:53, August 30, 2019 (UTC) ::::I am not opposed to your plans. I suggest trying to implement them as we discussed with a plot lines and see how it goes. If no big issue comes up, i'll update the Manual of Style and the Mythos-influenced section of the Canon page. ::::By the way, I don't really like the current appearance of the template that we would have to put on most of those pages: does any of you have suggestions for a logo/icon that we could use to represent this concept?RingoRoadagain (talk) 17:06, August 30, 2019 (UTC) New development Hi all, It's been brought to my attention that we may be going too far from the lovecraftian scope we should use with Marvel Comics. I am aware that it's still very much WIP but, to try to make the scope clearer to all asap, I would suggest to create a page for each Marvel story we think to be relevant --even if very bare bones-- to put a list of characters on each. Then we would use these lists to narrow down the characters and organisations if necessary on pages such as: *Marvel Multiverse *Prime Reality (Marvel) *Earth (Marvel's Prime Reality) I can try and help in that effort by using the marvel wiki as a reference and for that end, I would like all to expand on the list of stories on the "Marvel Comics" page for it to be as complete as possible since I doubt only those six are used (i don't see any of the conan comic stories for instance). I would like to take this occasion to present a tool which could be useful to those who are not aware: you can create your own Sandbox on your profile where you can make drafts of article when you think it's necessary. A simple way to make one is to go to your profile and put the text /MySandbox and publish the page, then click on the redlink and create to have your own sandbox.RingoRoadagain (talk) 17:12, September 9, 2019 (UTC) :Like your idea. What do you recommend about the following? There are story arcs and stand-alone issues in which a Mythos character is the primary antagonist (e.g. Shuma-Gorath has three). Then there are those in which it stars as a secondary or tertiary antagonist. For example in the Infinity Event (aka, Builder War), he appeared in two issues in which he was summoned into NY City to do damage and distract the heroes. At best a tertiary character. Do we make pages for those or skip?Esparza3368 (talk) 18:18, September 9, 2019 (UTC) :By the way, encountered a problems with a page I created - Shuma-Gorath's Ego Maze. For some reason it's not letting me add it to categories (e.g. locations).Esparza3368 (talk) 18:22, September 9, 2019 (UTC) ::I think we should list story arcs and stand-alone issues and I would be tempted to say any appearance of a lovecraft related character counts (but not stories which only feature characters were in a story with a lovecraft character, otherwise I think we would cover virtually all of marvel). If I can see a list I would have a better idea: I am not even sure if such stories would count in the dozens or the hundreds. ::As for the category issues, i'll discuss it on your profile to avoid filling ing this page with tangent subjects.RingoRoadagain (talk) 20:28, September 9, 2019 (UTC) Update. I'am going to make the following additional pages for the Marvel (Cthulhu Mythos) category: * 4 Great Old Ones (N'Gabthoth, Kathulos, Erlik Khan, & Ghaszaszh Nyirh) * 1 Dimension (Chthon's) * 2 Artifacts (Bride of Slorioth & the Black Mirror) * 4 Earth races (Broodlings of Chthon, Wolf-Men, Man-Bats, & Serpent People of Starkesboro) * 4 Extradimensional races (N'Garai, Khats, Fhtagn, & Exo-Parasites) * 2 Locations on Earth (Starkesboro & New York) At which point I'm taking a break from making more pages for the Marvel (Cthulhu Mythos) category. Will start working on the two dozen or so stories later on. Meanwhile I'll start work on the Lovecraft-influence / legacy category we discussed, the Eldritch pantheons & Lovecraftian races of Magic the Gathering, Forbidden Realms, Warhammer, Pathfinder, & Warcraft.Esparza3368 (talk) 02:57, September 13, 2019 (UTC) ::Plus the Eldritch pantheons and Lovecraftian races of Palladium's Rifts, Champions, and Hellboy. With some pages devoted to DC Comics and Marvel Comics Non-Mythos but Lovecraftian-like entities and races, and some for Anime ones. With pantheons like the Kings of Edom (Champions), Eldrazi (Magic the Gathering), and Chaos Gods (Warhammer) getting individual pages. Races like the Splugorth (Rifts), Qlippoths (Forgotten Realms), Space Monsters (Gunbuster), and Brood (Marvel) getting individual pages. A few pages will be for specific entities that aren't part of any Lovecraftian-like race or group, like the King of Tears (DC Comics), Kyuss (Forgotten Realms), Dormammu (Marvel), Set (Marvel), and the Devourer of Souls (Conan the Barbarian). Estimate it will be approximately 24-36 pages in their own category.Esparza3368 (talk) 05:09, September 13, 2019 (UTC) ::Great! It all seems quite fine to me. I don't see much more to add to the conversation but I'll try to help as much as I can.RingoRoadagain (talk) 17:20, September 13, 2019 (UTC)